Joy Ibsen interviewed by H.B. Simonsen
Corrected by H.B. Simonsen
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: It's running.
[SPEAKER_01]: What is your full name?
[SPEAKER_01]: Joy Marie Ibsen, or Ibsen as they say in Denmark.
[SPEAKER_00]: With a B. With a B. Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what is the date and place of birth?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was born on what we call April Fool's Day here, April 1st, 1940.
[SPEAKER_01]: And where was that?
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was in Tyler, Minnesota, just a few blocks from here, actually, in the old hospital.
[SPEAKER_01]: What was the old hospital?
[SPEAKER_00]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_00]: Who were your parents?
[SPEAKER_01]: What were their names?
[SPEAKER_01]: My father's name was Harold Ibsen, and he was a minister in the Danish Evangelical Lutheran Church.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had been born in the United States, and then at age six, his father died, and his mother, my grandmother, took the three children home.
[SPEAKER_01]: back to Denmark because she was alone on the farm and didn't speak English and had three little children.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were farmers, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was actually, in Irene, South Dakota, my great-grandfather, Mads Ibsen, M-A-D-S, Ibsen, came over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a really fascinating story.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if I'll go into it now, but he actually left Denmark because he owed some money on his farm and he couldn't get a loan on it, so
[SPEAKER_01]: Rather than ask his friends, he got on a ship without telling his wife and eight children and came over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: Which was a big, almost like a scandal in Denmark.
[SPEAKER_01]: But then he was able, he was not a strong man, he was in his 50s and he was kind of weak, but he brought each of his children and his wife over here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one of them was my grandfather, Lars.
[SPEAKER_00]: Are you aware of the place in Denmark they came from?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: The history is written.
[SPEAKER_01]: I have the history.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was written originally in Danish in the 30s, and it's been translated.
[SPEAKER_01]: They were from Hjørring and his parents and her parents, and so it's a rather extensive history.
[SPEAKER_00]: Hjørring?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, in the northern part of Denmark, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was in that area, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: And my mother was Asta Juhl.
[SPEAKER_01]: Mm-hmm.
[SPEAKER_01]: A-S-T-A-J-U-H-L, came from Clinton, Iowa.
[SPEAKER_01]: She was a musician.
[SPEAKER_01]: Her uncle was S.D.
[SPEAKER_01]: Rodholm.
[SPEAKER_01]: My grandmother was a Rodholm.
[SPEAKER_01]: And they were, he was the dean of the seminary, and he actually was the teacher of my father in the seminary.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those were my parents, and their first, well, he
[SPEAKER_01]: His first church was in Oakland, California.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he went there as a hobo because it was during the Depression.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he started out, and that story also has been written down and is in my book, Unafraid.
[SPEAKER_01]: So those were basically my roots in Danish.
[SPEAKER_01]: He lived, we grew up in...
[SPEAKER_01]: Originally, like I said, I was born here when I was two years old.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I'm going out to the little church this afternoon where we started out as a family.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then went to Kimballton, Iowa.
[SPEAKER_00]: You went there to live?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yes, that was after he moved from Oakland to the Diamond Lake Church, which is just very close by.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's about nine miles away or something like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then to Kimballton, Iowa, which is near the museum, just two miles from the museum.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was a very Danish community at that time.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then to Viborg, or you say Viborg, South Dakota.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was really not only where I grew up.
[SPEAKER_01]: I graduated from high school.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was there for 11 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it was also where my great-grandfather and my grandfather and the whole Ibsen family had
[SPEAKER_01]: There were still several members of the Ibsen family there at that point, descendants of Mads Ibsen.
[SPEAKER_01]: My parents moved, then I went to college at Grandview College.
[SPEAKER_01]: So my, up until the time I was 20 years old, I was really immersed in the Danish culture, Danish American culture, which is different from the Danish culture.
[SPEAKER_00]: Did you speak any Danish at home?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, and my brother, I had an older brother who was, and when he started, they only spoke Danish in the home until my brother went to school.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then he was having a lot of problems in school with not being able to speak English.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so they stopped speaking.
[SPEAKER_01]: Though I'm told that my first two words, også mig.
[SPEAKER_01]: Whatever my brother said, then I would just say, også mig.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that worked out very well for me for several years.
[SPEAKER_01]: Me also, also me.
[SPEAKER_01]: So how would you say, også mig?
[SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Også mig, også mig, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, også mig. Yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: And what was your schooling like?
[SPEAKER_00]: Where did you go to school?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, I went through high school in Viborg, South Dakota.
[SPEAKER_01]: Graduated from there, and that was typical, you know, United States education.
[SPEAKER_01]: At that time, I worked in the grocery store, and you had to know a few Danish words.
[SPEAKER_01]: like, you know, for food.
[SPEAKER_01]: But there were that many Danes that were still in Viborg.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's not the situation anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: My father told me, this might be interesting, that when he went to seminary, he had three years in seminary at Grandview, that the first year it was all in Danish, the second year was half Danish and English, and the third year it was English.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that is how fast the language changed.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said that if he had known at that time, he would have probably not gone.
[SPEAKER_01]: He would have been too worried about his language abilities.
[SPEAKER_01]: But it changed very fast.
[SPEAKER_01]: He used to sometimes speak on tours.
[SPEAKER_01]: He would speak in different places.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I remember being in churches where half the language was then an issue.
[SPEAKER_01]: and half would sing in English and half would sing in Danish, and they'd try to drown each other out.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I went to Grandview.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a two-year school in Des Moines where my father had graduated.
[SPEAKER_01]: My great-uncle had been there.
[SPEAKER_01]: My grandmother had been there, S.D.'s sister, Marie Rodholm.
[SPEAKER_01]: We didn't even think about going to any other place.
[SPEAKER_01]: After I left Grandview, I went to Shimer College.
[SPEAKER_01]: which is a great books program.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's a very unusual kind of school.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's what they call the pure Robert Maynard Hutchins approach to education, where you read everything in the original.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, they don't even allow textbooks on campus, and everything is discussion style and so forth, even in the sciences.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was the University of Chicago Experimental School.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I went to graduate school at the University of Chicago, but I only went there for one year, and was in the Divinity School at the University of Chicago.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that was in 62, 63, and I was married in 62.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had two courses with Paul Tillich during that time.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a wonderful experience.
[SPEAKER_00]: You were married?
[SPEAKER_01]: I was married, yes.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was married after college, and that was sort of typical then.
[SPEAKER_01]: And both my husband and I really ended up sort of, we couldn't both go to school.
[SPEAKER_01]: So at that time, it seemed it was sort of the usual thing for the woman to not go to school and to have a job and to help her husband because that was sort of the expectation.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I didn't
[SPEAKER_01]: you know, I didn't, I thought, well, okay, you know, so that's what I did.
[SPEAKER_00]: What was your husband's name?
[SPEAKER_01]: His name was John Mitchell Martin, my first husband.
[SPEAKER_00]: And do you have children?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have, we adopted a little girl first, and that was just, it wasn't because we couldn't have children, there were children then that needed adoption in Chicago, and she's Puerto Rican and Irish descent.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then we had two
[SPEAKER_01]: of biological children, two sons.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I have three children by that marriage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do they live?
[SPEAKER_01]: I have a, my daughter, whose name is Thea, T-H-E-A, Thea Marie Martin.
[SPEAKER_01]: Marie was sort of the family name of the Rodholms, is in San Diego.
[SPEAKER_01]: San Diego.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I have a son, my older son, Lee Mitchell is Martin, the last name is Martin, is in the Chicago area, Lyle, Illinois.
[SPEAKER_01]: He's a teacher there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then my son, I have another son, Noah, Andrew Ibsen Martin, who's in Oakland.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_00]: What career did your husband have?
[SPEAKER_01]: Well, he was a writer and a teacher and a newspaper man, you know, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we left Chicago.
[SPEAKER_01]: We were only in Chicago for another four or five years, and then he went to teach in Bentendorf, Iowa, or in Davenport, Iowa, in the Quad Cities there.
[SPEAKER_00]: Illinois, Iowa.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was he of a Danish background?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was sort of a mixture of English and Irish and German and that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was from Baltimore, Maryland.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was an actor.
[SPEAKER_01]: He...
[SPEAKER_01]: So he had, and we were married for, I think, almost 15 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he had a problem with alcoholism.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it became, during that time, it just became more and more difficult, particularly to raise the children.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so it became obvious that I needed to develop my own
[SPEAKER_01]: um, ability to, to, um, take care of the family and, um, divorced.
[SPEAKER_01]: We, so we were divorced.
[SPEAKER_01]: Uh, he has since passed away, has since died, but he had a, uh, I guess a really tragic life.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was a very, very talented, able person, but he, uh, uh, you know, it's just the, the, the problem of alcohol.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think you know something about that problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that's what happened.
[SPEAKER_00]: So you married again?
[SPEAKER_00]: You were married later?
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I was single for 11 years or so.
[SPEAKER_01]: And during that time, I moved.
[SPEAKER_01]: I didn't want to stay in the community.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I moved to Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I lived there for four or five years.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went to Chicago.
[SPEAKER_01]: I had several friends in Chicago.
[SPEAKER_01]: And lived there.
[SPEAKER_01]: And...
[SPEAKER_01]: I became, I just sort of threw a, my education wasn't really sufficient to be a,
[SPEAKER_01]: a teacher, a professor.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I did teach.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was a social worker.
[SPEAKER_01]: I did a lot of different careers during that time.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was a teacher in a private school, but I didn't really have the credentials, and I really couldn't go back to school with the three kids at that time, and I didn't have the funds to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: I went through a series.
[SPEAKER_01]: I became a, what do they call it, planner, and then I worked for United Way, and I ended up with a career in fundraising.
[SPEAKER_01]: I became a fundraiser, and...
[SPEAKER_01]: That's sort of how I got, then I moved to Milwaukee.
[SPEAKER_01]: In Milwaukee, I worked for United Way, which I don't know, they don't know if you have those agencies in Denmark, I don't think so, but they give money and they plan how to give social programs.
[SPEAKER_00]: Where do you live today?
[SPEAKER_01]: I live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
[SPEAKER_01]: I moved back to Chicago and I began working for hospitals.
[SPEAKER_01]: I spent the last 20 years of my career working for hospitals in fundraising, raising money for hospitals.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I worked for... Now I live in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan.
[SPEAKER_01]: I decided in 2000 to retire early because I wanted to do some writing.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've been involved in music all my life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted to do some music.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I decided that actually, you know, things sort of changed and I decided I was going to develop an escape kit from working and doing all this sort of rapid, this big, this life of a lot of activity in order to be able to write and do some music.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so I, we decided, I had remarried in 1987.
[SPEAKER_01]: I married Don Leneff, and we decided to retire to the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, which is a very, very northern part of the United States, near Lake Superior, and live in the woods, kind of, and we have friends up there, and live a different kind of life.
[SPEAKER_00]: Was he of Danish background?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, no.
[SPEAKER_01]: Don, who's here, his name is Don Leneff, L-E-N-E-F, is a...
[SPEAKER_01]: He's Jewish, primarily Russian, that kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: So he's not Christian.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have this family now.
[SPEAKER_01]: He had two sons.
[SPEAKER_01]: So we have a family where now I have four daughter-in-laws.
[SPEAKER_01]: And one is Greek Orthodox.
[SPEAKER_01]: One is Jewish Reformed.
[SPEAKER_01]: The daughter, her parents are Holocaust survivors.
[SPEAKER_01]: One is Irish Catholic.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then one is sort of new age, you know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And so we have a very mixed family.
[SPEAKER_01]: It doesn't seem to be a problem.
[SPEAKER_01]: We've now been married and have been married now almost 24 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that because you avoid talking about religion?
[SPEAKER_01]: No, I don't think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: It's just basically we don't inflict our ideas on other people, and we respect each other's ideas.
[SPEAKER_01]: My father, even though he was a Lutheran minister, but he really believed that his children had to have their own spirituality.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I don't expect my children to be Lutherans.
[SPEAKER_01]: If they can find something spiritual that nourishes them, I'm very happy for them, and I don't have any problem with that.
[SPEAKER_00]: And now you are at the Danebod Folk Meeting.
[SPEAKER_01]: Right.
[SPEAKER_00]: How does that...
[SPEAKER_00]: How do you explain that?
[SPEAKER_01]: I guess during the time I was, particularly my first marriage, and it was sort of survival time in terms of just taking care of family and working.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was working and busy, and we lived in Chicago.
[SPEAKER_01]: And even though there were Danes there, they're so spread out.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had a little bit involvement.
[SPEAKER_01]: And we always celebrated the Danish holidays with my parents and so forth.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I wasn't... It was really when I... My mother was a musician.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I came with her first year in 1991 to help her.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wasn't really looking that much forward.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I thought it was going to be nice, but I wasn't real.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was seeing it as something I was doing to help her, not something for me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And when I got here, I just was overwhelmed.
[SPEAKER_01]: I thought I'd loved my Grundtvigian Danish Heritage, but I really thought it had...
[SPEAKER_01]: It was something of the past.
[SPEAKER_01]: But when I got here, everybody was having such a good time, and folk dancing, and they were all, nobody was being, we were very happy, loving, wonderful people.
[SPEAKER_01]: The lectures were very stimulating.
[SPEAKER_01]: And especially there was a lecture by Walter Capps on the future of Grundtvigianism.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that just really, I thought, I mean, this was a man who was not a Dane,
[SPEAKER_01]: He was a scholar from California, University of California.
[SPEAKER_01]: He was friends with people like Dalai Lama and Bill Moyers and people like that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he said, remember his saying, this is one of the most important meetings that is happening in the world this year.
[SPEAKER_01]: At this time, he says, I'm not kidding.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I was thinking, this was just really like, wow, what are we talking about here?
[SPEAKER_01]: And I began to, I think, I realized during the time I was in college that there were expectations, there seemed to be at least expectations of me to kind of, I graduated from Grandview the same year as the church ended.
[SPEAKER_01]: The Danish Evangelical Lutheran Church ended and became part of the bigger one.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I went to divinity school without a church.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I never could get really comfortable in the Lutheran Church as it was merged.
[SPEAKER_01]: I've kind of made my peace with it now.
[SPEAKER_01]: In fact, I was an Episcopalian for about 30 years.
[SPEAKER_00]: Well, anyway... A member of such a... Of that church, yeah.
[SPEAKER_00]: Congregation, yeah.
[SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, I became... I liked going to church, but I wasn't really...
[SPEAKER_01]: I sort of thought there was a church God or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted my children to have that experience and then decide what they wanted.
[SPEAKER_01]: So anyway, I came back to Danebod in 1991, and I just was so taken with it.
[SPEAKER_01]: My mother died in 1993.
[SPEAKER_01]: But anyway, I think I've missed one since 1991.
[SPEAKER_01]: I come back every year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I began to really value my heritage in a different way.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was very worried about the music first really speaks to me.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted, and so I spent three years developing songs of Denmark.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it took me three years to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Every note had to be put into the computer separately.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted it to, even though my language, my Danish language is so poor,
[SPEAKER_01]: I wanted it to be in Danish and English.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I wanted it to be something that my daughters-in-law and other people would value if they weren't Danish and somehow get the tradition.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I did that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I went from that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Then I was asked to become editor of Church and Life.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was asked to present.
[SPEAKER_01]: I presented something here on various subjects.
[SPEAKER_01]: I became a presenter here.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I became the editor of what was Kirke og Folk, Church and Life, which first I said, no, I don't think I can do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I decided to do that.
[SPEAKER_01]: After I started doing that, I thought, you know, here I am, 30, 40 years, whatever, since I was in divinity school.
[SPEAKER_01]: When I was in divinity school, I really thought my interest was in doing some kind of journalism related to religion.
[SPEAKER_01]: And here...
[SPEAKER_01]: I was doing it, not the way I thought I would be doing it.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was doing it on this rather small Grundtvigian publication.
[SPEAKER_01]: But I was able to write an editorial.
[SPEAKER_01]: I was able to inflict my ideas on people once a month.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then I went from that to writing another book, Unafraid, and that was published last year.
[SPEAKER_01]: And that had to do with the Grundtvigian theology and my father's...
[SPEAKER_01]: What I did was I took cuttings from my father's sermons, not because they were of the past, but because they seemed to me to be interesting to what was going on now, and then wrote little vignettes about what was going on from there.
[SPEAKER_00]: You said when you came up here with your mother in 1991, you appreciated the heritage.
[SPEAKER_00]: Yes.
[SPEAKER_00]: But was it only...
[SPEAKER_01]: heritage was it was you said also it was not only heritage. Could you elaborate on that? What was it? Well yes well that it was something that I think it really provides, (that's okay, Marie; someone knocks on the door; hbs)
[SPEAKER_01]: I saw how nourishing it is.
[SPEAKER_01]: I realized how much I had missed it.
[SPEAKER_01]: And how little people knew about this.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, when I grew up, I just thought this was the way everybody lived and everybody thought.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I lived in Danish communities for 20 years.
[SPEAKER_01]: in with the Grundtvigian kind of thing.
[SPEAKER_01]: We took so much for granted.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I really saw how much this kind of thing is needed in the world, you know, so much of the principles that Capps talked about, the way he broke it down, was affirmation of life.
[SPEAKER_01]: Life is good.
[SPEAKER_01]: And all this stuff we hear in church about being sinners and all this kind of stuff.
[SPEAKER_01]: I never did really buy it.
[SPEAKER_01]: We never really were preached to in that way.
[SPEAKER_01]: All this fear-inducing.
[SPEAKER_01]: It was a very much more liberal, more loving, appreciative.
[SPEAKER_01]: So affirming life itself, not that it's a sugar-coating, I don't mean that.
[SPEAKER_01]: but that we're here to transform things and not to have our blinders on.
[SPEAKER_01]: I certainly don't believe that.
[SPEAKER_01]: The second one, and I developed a whole presentation that elaborated on each one of these principles.
[SPEAKER_01]: The second was appreciation of the goodness and beauty of ordinary life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And it seems like we've, unless you're some star or something, there isn't that appreciation that,
[SPEAKER_01]: There always was, and there should be, about people who were like, my grandfather was a janitor in a school after the Depression.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he was really valued and loved, and he valued his work, and he ran the school, Bedstefar.
[SPEAKER_01]: And now we look at some of these people who do that kind of work,
[SPEAKER_01]: as less than or something.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that beauty and goodness of ordinary life and looking at the songs, it's in the music.
[SPEAKER_01]: The values are in the music.
[SPEAKER_01]: So it was the values that I thought really need to be held up and lifted up.
[SPEAKER_01]: So that was part of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: Come in.
[SPEAKER_01]: We're just in the middle of it.
[SPEAKER_00]: The picture taking is going to start in a few minutes.
[SPEAKER_01]: That's okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't care about it, but you probably want to be in it.
[SPEAKER_00]: I think I should be there because there was someone who would speak with me.
[SPEAKER_00]: Okay.
[SPEAKER_01]: I'll just finish up.
[SPEAKER_01]: The other principles were...
[SPEAKER_01]: Stay as close to nature as possible.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Capps related this all to the coming crisis and the environmental crisis.
[SPEAKER_01]: He did projections about how much all these things... That was in 1991.
[SPEAKER_01]: That was in 1991.
[SPEAKER_01]: But he would say things like, with the goodness and beauty of ordinary life.
[SPEAKER_01]: And he would relate this to the problem of diversity.
[SPEAKER_01]: And I had this screen about, these are some of the problems we're experiencing.
[SPEAKER_01]: Ethnicity.
[SPEAKER_01]: These are the problems we're experiencing.
[SPEAKER_01]: They're going to get worse after 2000.
[SPEAKER_01]: And Grundtvigianism, he thought, spoke to those issues in ways.
[SPEAKER_01]: And then the last one was education, which, you know, the problems in education and learning.
[SPEAKER_01]: So I really took hold of that.
[SPEAKER_01]: And basically, I say to my friends, I'm much more Danish now than I was for... But are you Danish?
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you say that's the value?
[SPEAKER_00]: Is that Danish?
[SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if it's Danish anymore.
[SPEAKER_01]: I really don't.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think simplicity of life still seems to... I know when I look at what I hear about Denmark, that Denmark is also having a lot of the same struggles we're having.
[SPEAKER_00]: Would you consider yourself a Grundtvigian?
[SPEAKER_01]: Danish-American.
[SPEAKER_01]: Do I consider myself a Grundtvigian?
[SPEAKER_01]: I think so.
[SPEAKER_01]: I think I'm, I don't know, Grundtvig is so many different things.
[SPEAKER_01]: And sometimes I'm more probably what Grundtvigianism became here in this settlement than I am, you know, some other brand of Grundtvig.
[SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's like other things.
[SPEAKER_01]: People take things and they make a community out of that.